[Podcast] Work/rest balance — a Reskilliance chat with Catie Payne

A few weeks ago, I had the immense pleasure of sitting down for deep chats with Catie Payne, as a guest on her brilliant permaculture-infused podcast, Reskilliance.

Catie’s insightful questions really got me thinking deeply about the many ways I use permaculture thinking to ensure regular rest and downtime from my work and digital marketing business, while remaining financially stable.

In this podcast interview, we discuss:

• How I managed to buy the rental home I’d lived in for five years and why I prioritised sharehouse living well into my mid-30s.
• Simple ways I build financial resilience into my life, as a solo homeowner, self-employed small business owner and someone who lives with chronic pain.
• How I use the systems-thinking approach of permaculture to help manage my finances.
• Why I’m most interested in applying permaculture at the urban level and how I believe city folk can help spark big systemic change.
• How I use journalism to help spread permaculture and sustainable living ideas to a mainstream audience.
• The case for ‘generalists’ who have many skills and can step back to see the bigger picture, designing solutions from patterns to detail.
• Structures and permaculture-informed designs that I have deliberately set up within my digital marketing business to allow regular rest and downtime.

I’m so grateful to Catie for having me on the pod. Experiences like these prompt much deep introspection on my part, which is really useful for honing my approach and finding more clarity.

Have a listen or, if reading is more your thing, you can take a gander at the full transcript below.

Reskilliance podcast transcript

Catie’s introduction

Hey. This is Caitie, and you’re tuned into Reskillience, a podcast about the hard, soft, and surprising skills that’ll help us stay afloat if our modern systems don’t. I’m typing these words on my phone while squatting in the mud next to a huge reservoir on Dja Dja Wurrung country. The sun is out, the birds are singing, and there’s a fine translucent line between me and dinner. Jordan and I are fishing. We moved house this week into an old yellow cottage that we’re renting from a friend. It’s quite a big change for both of us.

As you might know, I’ve been living with David Holmgren and Su Dennett at Melliodora in a tiny house for almost three years. I’ve been chopping wood, turning compost, weeding veggie beds, seeding green manures, cooking humanure, and slowly forgetting what it’s like to pay cash for kale. Because at Melliodora, I had no rent, no bills, and no shortage of leafy greens. I paid my way in participation.

Arriving at Melliodora was like stepping off a veggie oil‑fuelled rocket ship and onto planet permaculture, with its unique atmosphere of intentionality, where every plant, animal, person and innocuous piece of piping had a reason for being, and ways of being in service to the whole. Planet permaculture, guided by the ethics of earth care, people care, and fair share, pulsates with living systems and an unmistakably pungent culture, exemplified by Su Dennett’s ultra‑funky goat’s cheese.

After three magical years in this very special place, reboarding the veggie oil rocket ship and blasting off into the rentosphere has been a bit of a shock, a good shock because now Jordan and I get to dream up our own household culture, work on designing our own systems from scratch, which brings me back to fishing. At this point, I’ve caught a stick and Jord has caught sight of five pelicans. It’s not looking promising for protein, but our hope is that we can fish, or hunt, or forage at least some of our food. And we want to establish systems and routines around that.

Nights of the week, we go hunting. Weekends, we go fishing. A plan for picking up roadkill. And with these aspirations, a great unfurling of questions like “where do the fish hang out? How healthy is the river? Which hooks and lines and sinkers are less likely to harm the river should they get lost? How do we forge connections with local farmers, who might let us hunt rabbits on their land? Which families raise animals for meat around here and how can we get in on that? Where do we source the veggies, and grains, and fats and condiments that we can’t conjure up ourselves? Which weeds can we forage? Where are they and have they been peed on? Do we want to be old mushroom foragers or bold mushroom foragers? How do we store excess food passively? How do we normalize non‑cheesy mealtime blessings? How do we continuously acknowledge and care for country?”

We’re building a composting toilet with permission from our lovely landholder, one of those simple squatty ones with a 20‑litre bucket and sawdust so that we can start gifting our triple‑chock colonic brownies back to the earth. We’re trying with all our might to cook on the piping hot top of the slow combustion fire, using wood energy, which is an abundant local resource, rather than gas energy, which is a natural disaster. We’re attempting to make our money go further, so we can keep pursuing the low‑paid, love‑charged, creative jobs we actually care about, and so on and so on.

Jord and I stayed out fishing ‘til the sun lost its warmth and a bitter wind sprung off the water, heading home with an empty esky. And when we finally got back to the burrow, our empty bellies overrode that stoic intention to cook on the fire, making use of the wood energy that was already warming the living room and instead we put some store‑bought meat in the pan and chucked it on the gas. We’re doing what we can to be radical permaculture renters, but sometimes our energy and determination and systems will break down and we’ll revert to modern convenience.

It’s almost impossible to completely decouple from the machine. And even if you could, what of everyone else without the access or ability or privileges to follow suit? It’s a tricky business, this counter‑culturing and I don’t have any firm answers other than to keep having fun. But one woman, with many a clue as to how to design elegant and energy efficient household systems, is Koren Helbig.

I’ve been watching Koren’s work from afar for ages, half envious and wholly admiring of her ability to weave permaculture principles throughout her entire life, from how she grows food, connects with neighbours, pays the mortgage and runs her business, to, as I discovered in this conversation, deliberately building rest and reflection, and fallowing into her schedule.

Many of you have requested interviews with folks who are making beautiful nests in less than perfect contexts, like the city, who haven’t flown off to planet permaculture, but instead are sticking with modern civilization. Similarly, you’ve asked for conversations that speak to personal challenges, like chronic pain, limited energy and neurodivergence, highlighting radical self‑compassion as the necessary first step in the radical re‑imagining of everything.

And so, I reached out to Koren, a restful role model for our times. If you don’t know Koren, she’s a digital marketing strategist and journalist based in Tandanya, Adelaide. She shares stories of gardening and climate‑positive futures for publications, like the ABC and The Guardian, and top-quality fluffy poultry content over on Instagram.

Most of all, Koren is a real and warm human being, who exudes a quiet brilliance. I loved spending time with her, and I’m sure you will too. There are lots of updates and shoutouts at the end of the episode, so be sure to hang around for those.

And for now, soak up this delightful conversation with Koren Helbig.

The podcast interview

Koren:            My gosh, these like, beautiful, crisp autumn days are so lovely. Like it’s just been really sunny, and like, you know, this window that I’m sitting in, this is a north‑facing window, so I sit here all day with the sun on my back and it’s just like divine.

Caitie:             How long have you been in the house you’re in now?

Koren:            So, I moved to this house in 2017, originally as a renter. And it was like a pretty run down, chaotic space. The backyard was like shoulder‑height weeds and no one had lived in the place for two years, which feels unimaginable now when you kind of look at the rental crisis, but you know, this house is small and it only has one bathroom and only two bedrooms. It didn’t have any air conditioning at the time, like it just wasn’t a house that people wanted to live in.

                        But I did because I could see it had all of this potential, like it had rainwater tanks and solar panels, like wicked in a rental, and a whole heap of north‑facing aspect. And, yeah, just all these things that, like from a permaculture and sustainable living perspective, I was like, “Oh, tick, tick, tick. And the fly shit on the fans and walls and the shoulder‑height weeds out the back, like that’s all manageable. I can deal with that.”

Caitie:             People come to me with questions around transition. And I think your story of going from renting to buying, or paying off a mortgage on that same property is really fascinating. Are you able to expand a little upon that process?

Koren:            Yeah. Yeah, so I moved here in 2017 with my partner at the time. And we had these wonderful few years of living here in kind of a share house environment. We had a really close friend of mine moved in and it was like this wonderful, chaotic life because this partner and I were just getting into permaculture life and all of these weird and wonderful and random things were going on as we were experimenting with all these different ways of living sustainably.

                        But I was sort of approaching my late-30s at the time and I was really ready to buy a house. I hadn’t ever owned a house. I hadn’t ever owned anything more expensive than my car in my life and my car’s worth like $5,000 or something. It’s not a very good car. Yeah, so we started looking, and we looked, and looked, and looked, and I had this really clear list of criteria of things that I wanted in a home and they were all related to sustainable living. So, it was things like north‑facing aspect, and rainwater, and solar panels and stuff like that, space for a garden, not a very big house, that sort of thing.

                        And it’s actually really hard to find homes like that. Unfortunately, when places are built, they’re not often built with those sorts of things in mind. And the whole time we were looking, I just kept thinking like, I actually just want to live here. Like, I love this house that I’m renting. I just want to live here. And we’d contacted the owner, who is an Australian, but she lives in Austria, a few times asking her if she would sell. And she kind of just wasn’t ready to, I guess.

                        And then there was this weird sequence of events where we put an offer in on a house and we missed out on it, even though we were the highest bidder. And I was so furious. I was like, “How dare they?” just really, really angry. And then the very next day, our landlord called and she was like, “I’m getting all these emails from Doris, the owner of your house. Have you seen her emails?” And anyway, it turns out that she had emailed me months ago saying, “Okay, actually I’m ready to sell.”

                        And obviously, it went into my spam and my spam is a nightmare. I never check it. And I totally missed it. And she was like, “You know, I’ve got three other people interested, so give me your best offer.” And, well, I never saw that email. And in the preceding three months, the other buyers that I knew nothing about fell out of the race. And so, by the time it came to us, it was really just us in the race and she wasn’t interested in putting the house on the market.

                        So, we were incredibly lucky. That was in 2021 that we purchased. And you know, the housing market was already starting to get pretty crazy there. So, we were lucky that she didn’t want to go out onto the market. And then I suppose we started the whole, like, how are we going to fix this place up to make it even more comfortable to live in, to make it lighter on the planet, all of those sorts of things. And that’s kind of when the renovations began.

Caitie:             How did you get in contact with the landowner rather than just having that intermediary of the real estate agent?

Koren:            We tried lots of different ways to get in contact with her directly. Her brother still lives here in Tandanya, Adelaide. And so, we tried through him and he was very much like, “She has a landlord. Go through, him.” So, yeah, we tried all our little wily, permie ways to get that direct contact, but it wasn’t possible. So, in the end, we went through the agent.

                        But I did go to a lot of effort to butter up the agent whenever she came- the landlord. Whenever she came through to do inspections, I’d always send her off with a big basket of homegrown food and be sure to show her how beautiful this section of the garden was looking now because what we’d done when we moved in and faced this garden that was in tatters and ruins, the agency had said, “Oh, we’ll send a gardener in and they’ll clean it up for you.” But I was really worried that they would deal with that in really unsustainable ways. And so, we negotiated for slightly lower rent in return for caring for the garden.

                        So, that became this really great talking point with the agent whenever she came around. And I think that helped as well. There was already a beautiful relationship kind of happening there.

Caitie:             Ah, so much good comes from bringing those relationships home and it’s not about some kind of grand strategy or interpersonal manipulation. It’s simply the fruits of relating directly with people and doing those normal everyday human things that you would with a friend to open up all of those possibilities. And yeah, I have this sense of holding the complexity of all of the challenges that we face in accessing housing, and land and the costs of living, but also the opportunities that present themselves when you start really tuning in to each other as human people, who can support, and assist and provide those extracurricular opportunities that we may not actually see on realestate.com.

                        And another thing you said, Koren, which pricked my ears and piqued my interest was that you were in your late‑30s. When you were renting, having the share house experience and I’d like to ask you a little bit more about that because I know as someone in my mid‑30s, I do feel a certain degree of pressure around what assets I do or don’t have and where I’m going to find security in that definition that we have around that being four walls and a roof. And also doing life differently, as a freelancer, as a creative person, as someone who likes to live in the gaps, but yeah, tell me a little bit more about where you were at in your late‑30s and what choices you’ve made that kind of saw you just have a car as your primary asset and, yeah, how you were sitting with that.

Koren:            Well, I’ve always lived in share houses as an adult up until now. I live here by myself now, but yeah, previously I’ve always lived in share houses and absolutely loved it. And I really wish it was more normalized. Like I remember maybe last year talking to a friend, who was in the online dating scene, and she was like, “I’ve met this guy. He seems great, but he’s like 36 and he still lives in a share house. Like what the heck?”

                        And I was like, “Good for him. What a legend. Imagine all the connections he’s got,” and really just tried to kind of normalize that situation because this desire for us all to live such individualistic lives and in our own little pockets of the world, I think is really disconnective, but also that has an impact on the housing crisis if more of us live together. You know, a lot of those empty spare rooms might be able to have warm bodies in them overnight.

                        So, yeah, I’ve loved share housing. I guess, for me, that sort of began when I moved- I moved to Brisbane in my mid‑20s and I lived there for five years and kind of share housed around there. And then I moved to Spain just before I turned 30 and lived there for about four years and lived in a really chaotic, hilarious share house over there. So, when I moved back home, it really was a no‑brainer to just kind of continue that scenario.

                        I guess, the one thing I have done the entire time I’ve share housed was saved, very consciously saved money. So, I guess, my bargain with myself was like, “You can have no assets. You can live this free life. You can do whatever you want, but there needs to be some sort of little safety net of a nest egg that’s being built, at all times.” And when I lived in Spain, I really- that’s when I first started my own business, but it was actually more just like a hobby because I was much more interested in like hanging out with Spanish people so I could really learn the language, going to the beach every day, and traveling around Europe as much as I could because that was the time where I was nearby and the travel miles were less and that kind of thing.

                        So, you know, while I was there, I think I earned like $25,000 a year or something really tiny. But I still tried to save, or at least, if not save money, then then not dip into that nest egg too much. And so, that’s what’s helped me get to where I am now, like that nest egg really did help me get into home ownership where I am now. And it even helped me eventually- or pretty soon after my ex‑partner and I bought the house, that relationship actually broke down. And that was really challenging. Like, we’d been together for almost seven years. We were engaged. It was like this huge sort of life event.

                        But I knew I really wanted to keep this house, like it had just ticked so many of those boxes that were so important to me from a sustainable living perspective. And having had that lifelong sort of saving approach is what helped me be able to do that because I had put in more money than he had at the start, so it gave me a bit of a leg‑up coming out the other side.

                        So, yeah, I sort of always think like assets are great, or savings are great. Like, you can do either. I just think you kind of need to be doing something to kind of secure your future, whatever that looks like for you.

Caitie:             Yeah. Nice. And that saving, squirreling‑away mentality does lend itself beautifully to a life of frugal hedonism. Are there specific ways that you went about actively saving money?

Koren:            Yeah, I love that you’ve mentioned Frugal Hedonism. That is one of my favourite ways to describe it. That book by Adam Grubb and Annie Raser‑Rowland, The Art of Frugal Hedonism, is one of my all‑time favourites. I think I’ve read it like five times and it’s almost like on my annual reading list as a reminder of how life can and should be. So, yeah, I definitely take my cues from that. I mean, I think I’ve always been a fairly thrifty person, but that’s been more motivated from an environmental perspective rather than a monetary perspective, like knowing the impact that consumerism has on our planet and wanting to make more conscious choices so that my impact was as low as possible.

                        But the wonderful upside of that is that it often costs you less money. Things like buying clothes at the second‑hand shop, or bartering with a mate to help build your garden beds, or rifling through a bin for your dinner, supermarket bin. All of those sorts of things, like, they have a really- they’re lowering your impact on the environment, but they also mean that life is cheaper. So, that’s definitely helped.

                        I guess, now that I am a solo mortgage owner, and also a self‑employed person, which are two things that I think five‑years‑ago‑me would have been too terrified to even kind of contemplate, but today‑me is oddly calm about it all. I kind of- the way I build resilience into that system is that I act as though my interest rate is much, much higher than it actually is. And I always. pay extra off of my mortgage each week, each fortnight, or however often it comes out.

                        And so, the idea behind that is there’s some bandwidth there for if interest rates do rise, I’m protected. I’m already living within that kind of means, so it won’t affect me too badly. It makes it easier to live more thriftily because the money in my day‑to‑day spending account is lower, so there’s a bit of a- kind of a feedback loop there. And it gives me this stability, like of being several months ahead on my mortgage. It’s just kind of a piece of security for me knowing like, if I get really sick and can’t work for a while or something like that. And I have. I live with chronic pain. I have a fairly serious back injury that has in the past, I think three times, rendered me almost unable to walk for like months at a time.

                        So, that is a real possibility for me that I could end up being knocked out of work for some months at a time. And so, that’s what I still call savings, but it kind of is now just extra payments has given me the sense of security, even in in this mortgage world, which is a really weird one to live in, having such a huge amount of debt hanging over your head.

Caitie:             Oh, such a beautiful and candid response. And again, a few things that I’d love to dig into there. One, a huge one being your business and how you build in rest and those elements. But first, I’m quite intrigued by your accountability to those limits that you’re setting for yourself, like the kind of an invisible structure that you’ve put around your payments, your savings. Like, how do you invest those conscious limitations with enough authority that you’ll actually keep answering to them and not just expand to kind of spend all of the money that you make, which I know I so readily do, and I think human people are so prone to do.

Koren:            Yeah, definitely. It does take some restraint. And I don’t have great willpower, so the way that I have done it is through a systems approach. I think that’s probably why I like permaculture so much, because it’s a systems approach also. So, I’ve kind of added those sorts of systems into my financial life. So, for example, I have a budget mapped out. It’s not anything different to what a normal budget looks like where you just figure out absolutely everything you ever spend money on and then break that down by month and week. And that kind of falls out to how much money you need each week.

                        But then I have a couple of different bank accounts. And so, the money that I spend each week- I almost like pay myself a wage. So, each week, I just transfer a few hundred dollars over and that’s kind of like my living expenses money for the week, just to cover things like petrol and going out with a mate maybe. And I don’t know, if there’s other op shopping, a crucial weekly expense. And all of them aren’t very much money. But you know, it just makes me conscious. Like if I’m at the petrol bowser, I’m conscious of how much money I have to spend there. And if I spend a bit more, then maybe I can’t go out for dinner on Friday or something like that.

                        So, that helps as a really clear feedback loop because you know, I’ve got this other larger bucket of money that would be very easy to just be like, “Oh, well cool. There’s heaps there. I’ll spend it all,” but kind of paying myself this wage and having this feedback system week to week that tells me whether I’m within my budget or not is much more immediate.

                        And then if I’m over budget, I have to physically transfer across. And that’s like a pause moment and like, “Do I really need this? Do I really want this? Is this important enough to maybe go without something in the future because it’s not in my budget?” And it’s kind of all automated, so I don’t have to think about it. It just automatically transfers over. So, that’s been crucial, I think, to figuring it all out.

Caitie:             Thank you for sharing that insight. It’s really helpful to hear how people manage things in that financial realm. How did you decide what was enough to pay yourself?

Koren:            Just from the budget. Literally looking at how much I thought I would be able to earn and things that were absolutely non‑negotiables, like the mortgage, but also like council rates, and water, and electricity, and gas and all those very boring must‑pay things. Obviously, my house isn’t off grid. I live in the suburbs in Adelaide. It’s just a pretty regular house, so I have all the regular expenses that a normal person would have.

                        And then and then looked at the things that I do have some agency over, like you know, going out and spending money out, like at a pub or a restaurant, and deciding how much money I wanted to spend on that. And my budget there is actually pretty tiny. I think I’ve got something like- I call it entertainment. I think I’ve got something like $70 a week allocated for entertainment, which really almost isn’t even enough to cover like going out for a meal and a drink kind of thing.

                        But that’s sort of deliberate because what that means is I’m then often proposing more creative ways to see the people that I love, you know, like, let’s go for a beach walk or a walk in the forest, or let’s take your little dog down to the dog park, or come over and we’ll make dinner here, or like, let’s do something in the garden together, sort of looking for ways that don’t spend money.

                        So, yeah, I guess, in looking at how much was enough, I looked at not only like literally the financial value, but how did I want to live my life. Like, I absolutely want to catch up with my friends and family regularly, but I don’t want to bomb $200 bucks a week on that because that’s going to upset the stability of my financial position or mean I have to work more, which I don’t want to do. I don’t want to push myself into working more just so I can eat at a fancy restaurant. So, yeah, I guess that’s another feedback loop that has helped.

Caitie:             Yeah, amazing. So, beyond a number, a figure in a bank account, what does make you feel wealthy?

Koren:            I think one of my most treasured possessions is this box of seeds that I have and it’s kind of like a combination of things that I’ve grown in my own garden and saved, or you know, purchased or got at seed swaps or been gifted by friends. And whenever I’m feeling a little bit wobbly, I’ll kind of like go there and have a look at what’s in there, and maybe pull out a few things and go and plant something new because that feels like resilience. It’s like, “Okay, well, you know, I’ve got food here. If I need it, this is a way that I can make food available to me.” And even just having like a well‑stocked pantry really helps me to feel like I have enough.

                        I guess the other thing, when I think about enough, is enough time and space to rest. Like I just can get very tired very quickly. And I think in previous versions of my life, I kind of ignored that a little bit and pushed past, like, well beyond my capacity. And so, now, like figuring out when I’ve had enough, I’ve had enough stimulation and it’s time to just roll back into rest, that’s becoming increasingly important.

Caitie:             Yeah, you’re expressing some really insightful and kind of old‑fashioned ways of operating. And I’m wondering who your role models have been, who those influences have been in your life, who have shaped you.

Koren:            Well, I guess, I guess it all starts with my parents. They have really strong environmental values and strong sort of moral and social compass, which they’ve handed down to me and my two sisters. We all now have our own businesses and that’s like a really strong thread for all of us through our businesses. And they did a few kind of unconventional things with us when we were kids, like when we were in primary school, they would take us out of school on huge road trips you know, up to Cape York or across to Western Australia to the Kimberley.

                        And they were always very interested in and respectful of First Nations cultures, so they often tried to give us opportunities to kind of intersect with and meet First Nations people. And I have these really incredible memories of like walking alongside an elder sort of out on country somewhere in the middle of nowhere and being told about stories of the land, and the plants, and ways of being and doing, doing that have been handed down. And that was just like an unbelievably beautiful experience. I’m so grateful to have had that in my childhood.

                        And I think that has really informed a lot of my beliefs and kind of respect for culture that I have now. I mean, I have to say, we were also just like a regular family. Like we went to a mainstream school. We had like meat and three veg for dinner, like that kind of thing. But there were elements of that sort of more unconventional life.

                        I think also mum and dad didn’t have a lot of money when we were growing up, so they did a lot of things to ensure that we had like a really healthy diet that didn’t cost too much money. Like they’d buy a huge box of tomatoes and sit outside in summertime in the shed, stirring homemade tomato sauce for hours. The best sauce ever, I have to say, but gosh, what a task to get it done. So, yeah, I guess I grew up seeing things being made and used, and handed down and that sort of thing.

                        And then I guess as I’ve gotten older, a lot the knowledge that I really have come to rely on has come from books. Like I was a really big reader as a kid and that I’m really grateful that I still have that kind of lifelong thirst for reading. And so, I just read voraciously. I’m the kind of person who has to have a book in every room that’s on the go, you know. So, I might be reading five books at a time or something like that.

                        And I like the constant exposure to new ideas through books and that kind of helps me to keep kind of editing my life to make it ever more like comfy for me, but low impact for the world.

Caitie:             Oh, that notion of editing your life is so beautiful. That’s really ringing my writerly bells. So, in kind of reading back over the drafts of your existence, was there a point where you started to see that thread of permaculture, and activism and change making really strongly coming through and selecting for that in the next chapters? Like, when, when did that happen?

Koren:            Yeah, there was a definite moment where that happened. So, I was living in Brisbane with my sister and we were both working pretty mainstream jobs. Like I was working as a journalist, a political journalist for a major metropolitan daily newspaper in Brisbane. And my sister was doing like technical systems, like – God, I’m not doing this any justice. She’ll be horrified if she listens to this, but something to do with computers for big companies is all I’m going to say.

                        And we were both feeling fairly out of alignment at work, like just feeling fairly out of alignment with our personal life. And we were living together in this tiny little house and we decided to launch a blog called She Makes Magic, which eventually turned into a podcast as well. This was maybe 12 years ago or something. Longer, actually.

Caitie:             Wow, so ahead of your time.

Koren:            Yeah, it was wonderful, actually, and we used those two frameworks as a platform to talk about sustainable living and also to expose ourselves to people who were living on the edge, a life less conventional, kind of almost like as a- I wrote a pathway for us to follow because we both knew that we wanted to jump at some point, but we didn’t feel ready yet. And so, we sought out all of these people, largely women, who were already on that path and picked their brains by a podcast and kind of tried to inspire ourselves.

                        And then in terms of permaculture, I distinctly remember when I first came across permaculture. Like I was traveling with my sister, the same sister, Alana, in Tasmania. So, at the time, I was living in Spain, but she had bought a campervan and had invited me to a one‑month trip around the entire perimeter of Tasmania. And so, we’d gotten to the West Coast and we’d taken that little ferry across the Piemen River to Corinna, I think is the name of the place, which I think is some sort of little eco resort. So, it’s not much more than a restaurant, a few buildings and a campground.

                        Anyway, so that night, we were hopping into the van to go to sleep and we’re both very early to bed type people, but we heard all of these people in the communal cooking area having this like grand old time, playing guitar, and laughing and just sounding like they were having so much fun. And we thought, “All right. Let’s pop out and see who these legends are.” And we ended up like staying there the whole night and having this shared meal with these people and it was just totally wonderful.

                        And we asked them why they were there and they said, “Oh, we’re permies.” And we were like, “Okay, like, what’s that?” And they said, “Oh, there’s been the Australian Permaculture Convergence here in Tasmania and we’ve just been there, we’re all inspired and we’ve just come down here to kind of debrief.” I think it might have been in 2015 or something.

                        And I just remember walking away from that experience and thinking like what is permaculture and how can I get involved because these are people who are like super intelligent, they’re so interesting. They’re living these incredibly different, diverse, wild lives. They’re really skilled, like, “Look at that guy go on the guitar. Look at that other person like cooking dinner.” And they’re so welcoming. Like we were totally random people. We just rolled in and were instantly welcomed. So, yeah, that was kind of when I was like, “I need this in my life. This fits really well.”

                        But it took another couple of years when I came back home to South Australia before I kind of got really serious and I did a Permaculture Design Certificate at The Food Forest here in South Australia, in Gawler. And like for many people, that was sort of really pivotal and just set my life on a whole new trajectory.

Caitie:             Amazing. Yeah. I’m eating The Food Forest’s divine pistachios at the moment. They just the best. And they David and Su went to visit them pretty recently and they came back with all of these otherworldly delights, like pomegranates, and jujubes, and pistachios and stories. And so, then, having this burgeoning interest in permaculture and then an ongoing study and exploration of permaculture, I’m wondering how you went about applying that to your garden and your home over the years, first as a rental and now as your nest.

Koren:            Yeah, well, I guess, first of all, it was just like, “Okay, this seems like a really practical approach to life. I’m going to get out into the garden and see what I can do out there.” And I was renting, so there wasn’t a lot that I could do. Just like there was an existing garden. I just operated within it, which was really cool. But I guess, like, I live pretty close to the city centre here in Tandanya, Adelaide. I’m like maybe five kilometres from the city centre. I’m on 478 square meters. Like, it’s a small urban block.

                        And I started looking around to say, “Like, well, what are other people doing in terms of permaculture in cities? Like, where’s that narrative?” because, especially once I’d bought, the dream of moving to the country had I had flown the coop. I realised that that was probably outside of my financial means, but also my energetic means. Like I do battle tiredness, especially with chronic pain and the sort of makeup of my brain. So, I was like, “No, I think I’m actually a city person. I think I’m here to stay in the city. And how can permaculture help me here in this urban environment?”

                        And so, yeah, I kind of just started applying some of those principles here at home and really taking it- trying to take it beyond the garden because this is the kind of thing that I love about permaculture. Like obviously, there’s often a gardening thread because growing even just a little bit of your own food has so many positive benefits for you, and the planet and your community. But it is actually a design system for life and you can apply it to absolutely anything from your career, to the type of house you choose, or the way you want to hang out with your friends, or, I don’t know, the kind of partner you choose in life. Like, literally, anything you can use it for.

                        So, that became kind of the framework that I started to apply here. Like, “Okay, well, what does permaculture look like in the city?” And around the same time, I read this statistic from the United Nations, which predicts that seven in 10 people will live in urban areas by 2050, which is about double the population size that we’re in right now. So, it started to feel really important to me. We don’t live very sustainably in city areas. It’s pretty frightening how unsustainable our cities are. And so, I was really interested in looking into permaculture as a way to maybe provide some solutions at that urban level.

                        And yeah, I guess for me, that’s looked like, well, talking about the type of house that I chose, but also some of the renovations that we did. Like, I really wasn’t interested in a cosmetic fake facelift you know, just like knocking out the perfectly good kitchen to put a prettier one in. Like that just seems a bit unconscionable to me in this age of climate crisis. I was more like, “Well, what’s insulation and how can I get better insulation,” and I don’t know, “what are ways to warm up my house passively, and what changes can I make so that the indoor air quality is healthier for me, and how can I connect all my rainwater tanks so I’ve got more water resilience?” Like those were the kinds of questions that I started asking myself.

                        And then obviously, after I bought, that became a really good opportunity to play with the garden. So, now I’ve created a native butterfly garden out the front and a permaculture food garden out the back. And it’s been really lovely to talk about the different ways that gardening can be a force for good in a city area as well without it needing to be overwhelming. Like it doesn’t need to be this ginormous, sprawling garden.

Caitie:             Yeah. Oh, I really dig the conscious embrace of that environment and the thrill of that challenge of working in an urban, and as it stands, unsustainable system. So, do you feel like the home that you’re creating – and it’s an ongoing unfolding process, obviously – but is this getting you closer to a sense of resilience, of not so much self‑sufficiency, but like community sufficiency? Do you see this as a good solution, or are we still like kind of a long way away from a point where cities and suburbs could be quote, unquote, sustainable?

Koren:            That’s a tricky one to answer because, like, I sort of see what’s happening in my little bubble and feel really positive about that and I’ve got this wonderful community of people that I’m connected to on Instagram, who are likeminded and I see all of their little bubbles and I think, “Wow, like this is totally possible.” But then I’d go for a walk around my street and kind of look at all my community and look at the astroturf, and the lack of trees and people putting down like weed matting and mulch and I just think, “Oh, gosh, we’ve actually really still got so far to go.”

                        But yeah, my sense is that people feel- are worried about the scenario that we’ve found ourself in, that we’ve created for ourself and the future, what the future of the planet looks like amid the climate crisis, that they feel overwhelmed by where to start, or disempowered, like, “I can’t make a difference. I’m not even going to try.”

                        But I like sort of speaking into this microspace of like, “Well, here’s how I fixed the insulation in my house, or here’s how I installed a fireplace and mindfully source wood, or move that heat around my house so I don’t have to turn on an air conditioner,” and kind of presenting these as like, “Well, maybe here’s a little place you can start, or here’s another little place you can start.”

                        And I’m always really kind of overjoyed by the messages, the emails and the DMs that I get from people with my journalism stories or things I’m writing about online to sort of say like, “Oh, I’m spending more time in the garden now, or I’m doing this thing differently and it’s having such a positive impact.” And I kind of feel like it all starts there, like, yes, we need this big systemic change. There’s these big powers, forces at work that are huge and beyond the impact or the capability of one individual.

                        But often, systemic change comes from, you know, people asking for it, like that groundswell of people demanding change. And people can’t demand change if they don’t care. So, starting these small things at home, I feel like they’re the gateway drug or something. They sort of start to open your mind up to, “Okay, well, now I care about- you know, I realise how important a north‑facing aspect is for my house. I’m actually pretty annoyed at the way new developments are allowed to- new housing developments are allowed to go in with no thinking whatsoever done about orientation. I’m actually feeling pretty annoyed about that. I think I’m going to start, you know, writing to people about that and start advocating for change.”

                        And I do feel hopeful around that kind of thing. So, I guess in answer to your question, it’s sort of like a yes and no. Like I think we’ve got so far to go for our cities to become even sustainable, let alone regenerative. But that’s not a reason not to start. And if we all kind of just started, I just feel so hopeful about what kind of groundswell of change that that could create.

Caitie:             Yeah, nice. And, yeah, one thing I just absolutely adore when I read your work, when I look at your Instagram page, when I see you popping up on the ABC is the way that you meld the radical and the regular, like it’s so blissfully approachable and beautiful and you don’t take for granted, you know, people’s level of knowledge and it’s not patronising the slightest. It’s just pure digestible and actionable content.

                        And I think that actually takes a fair whack of wisdom to express and to put out there because I know the deeper you get into the weeds of permaculture and, you know, ecological thinking and connection, it’s like hard to keep your head and remember the profundity of that simple, small and simple stuff. So, yeah, do you really feel like you’re in your flow as a, I suppose, as an activist, as someone who is a living embodiment of their values. Like, do you think you’re working effectively and where you kind of want to be? I don’t know. That’s like quite a big question, but I’m just, yeah, curious about that sense you have of like, “Yeah, I’m doing the work that I want to be doing.”

Koren:            I love this question. My brain’s hooked on being called an activist because I’ve actually realised I don’t think of myself as an activist, but maybe I should. That’s really fascinating.

Caitie:             Well, that word is really loaded as well. So, I’m redefining it on an individual basis. But yeah, please continue with your thought process there.

Koren:            Yeah. I mean, yeah, to some extent, I feel like I’m sort of arriving at this place where 20 years of very random skills have led me to a place where I can, yeah, communicate to the mainstream, in a way. Like I guess, for context, I’ve been a journalist for 20 years. That’s kind of my background before I started digital marketing. And I’ve written for publications all over the world, told all sorts of stories that you can imagine, but mostly as an observer, telling other people’s stories.

                        And it’s really only been in the last two to three years sort of from when I began writing regularly for the ABC, that I started speaking in first person and telling about things in my own life and speaking from my own perspective. And that’s definitely harder. There are elements of it that are harder, like I’m more directly connected to the criticism. People can be really mean in comments and sometimes people just email me really mean, mean things. And I don’t have a very thick skin around any of that. I don’t actually think I have the ability to develop a thick skin. So, that is hurtful and can, like, knock me off my perch a bit.

                        But I guess that’s balanced by, you know, the really empowering fact that I’m more connected to the positive as well and I do hear that feedback of people who are like, “I’ve made these changes in my life and it’s really helped me, or I feel like I’m actually being able to do something about the climate crisis now.” So, yeah, I feel like that sort of connection, that level of connection, has just grown to a point where people seem to be listening.

                        And I love the idea that I’m writing for the ABC or The Guardian. They’re the two main publications that I write for now. And I’m always trying to like sneak permaculture principles and ethics into those stories and I love the idea that that’s going out to, at times, hundreds of thousands of people, Australians, but all over the world as well and just starting to crack open some of these ideas and pop them back into the mainstream because like you say, they’re not actually radical, they’re just the way that people always lived you know, years ago and it’s only really in the last half a century to a century that we’ve moved so far away from it that this is radical now to live in this way. But I don’t think it needs to be considered that. So, it’s kind of nice to be popping back in- you know, kind of popping that back into the narrative.

                        And then also, I guess, from like the main part of my business now, like I do a little bit of journalism, but I actually find that quite energetically taxing to keep writing, writing, writing for publications, so the main part of my work now is digital marketing. And I really am hyper‑focused on working with like ethical small business owners, who have really strong value system and, you know, people who are concerned with that triple bottom line. So, like people, planet and profit, not just profit.

                        And again, that’s a space where it feels like these 20 years of kind of random skills development have helped me arrive at a place where I can actually be quite useful to people because I can help them with their communication and their marketing, but I can also layer over lots of sort of sustainable living threads, or ethics and principles that make it a lot more manageable, or make it feel good for business owners. It’s not so icky or outside of alignment. But, yeah, it sort of feels like it’s just getting started. I’m interested to see what happens in the next sort of five years.

Caitie:             I am too. I’m really excited and it stimulates my brain no end when I see people like you integrating things that we’ve somehow- they’ve drifted apart and separated out and they’re in these boxes. The way we do everything matters, from these little tiny moments of engagement, even sometimes the way I sign off an email, I feel like I can put something in that sign off that might just seed a little idea or create an image in someone’s mind. And you just never know what that is going to flourish into in the future. But in terms of how you do business, not just what you do in your business, the how is so alive when I see your work and what you’re sharing from your personal perspective about the permaculture ethics and principles that you’re applying to your work and to your way of working. I’d love to hear you expand on that, Koren, like how you’re consciously designing your business around those permaculture ethics and principles.

Koren:            Well, yeah, I have this sort of like multi‑branched business now where I get to do lots of different things, like there’s the journalism stuff, the digital marketing stuff. I also do some sustainable living, like education and workshops, which is really amazing. And I just want to put a plug in here for generalists. Like, we live in this highly-specialised world, right, like people are going necessarily. So, getting very specialised in all these different fields.

                        But I think there’s a strong case for also having generalists in our society as well, which is what I consider myself to be, you know, someone who’s good at doing lots of different things. And I think that means you can kind of step back and see the bigger picture. You have this sort of perspective that allows you to see how things interlock. And it also means you can spot wider patterns and then design from those, which obviously, is a permaculture principle, design from patterns to detail.

                        So, I feel like that’s a lot of what my work is doing, sort of stepping back and looking around and going, “Right, what is the wider pattern here? And then how can we design that down into something that really, really connects with people or really means something or really makes change?” But yeah, I think the opportunity to work for myself has been just phenomenal in terms of like having a go at challenging some of the accepted norms of the corporate world and just playing with some different ways of working.

                        I was really lucky to do a holistic decision-making course with Dan Palmer before he passed away. And that has been pivotal, like pivotal, life‑changing for me, really helping inform my life choices because it focuses- you sort of start with how you want to feel, like what you want your life to feel like, what’s important to you. And then you kind of create enabling actions out of that and your kind of goals and what actually you do in your life all falls out of that.

                        So, that’s kind of led me to some interesting decisions, like one at a small scale is that I just don’t take unscheduled phone calls. Like if a client calls me and we don’t have a meeting scheduled, I just don’t answer and maybe later on, I will text to say like, “Hey, I noticed you called. If you’d like to schedule a meeting, please send me an email and we’ll work it out.” And that’s because I personally find phone calls, like unscheduled phone calls, incredibly disruptive. I like to work in really focused blocks of time and if I get interrupted during those focused blocks of work, it takes me a long time to kind of come back into it. And I just, I don’t get to do my best work. And so, I’ve kind of developed this system that, you know, helps to preserve something that I know that I need.

                        The same with meetings, like I largely avoid video meetings because I find them quite energetically draining. And I will always ask for a phone meeting unless there’s something that absolutely needs to be done on screen. It also has a lower environmental impact, so that kind of hits, you know, two values for me. What other things? I’ve built in a lot of flexibility in the way that I work, so I can shuffle work around if I’m not feeling too well. Like I do live with chronic pain and I have a brain type that’s quite sensitive and susceptible to overwhelm and burnout. And so, sometimes, I just have days where I wake up and I just don’t have it in me because I’ve created this this kind of work life where I can easily shuffle time around.

Caitie:             And what about the structure that you mentioned on socials recently around the weeks that you insert as rests, rest periods?

Koren:            Yeah, so this is quarterly weeks off I call them. I have a bit of a tendency to overwork and to push myself beyond my energetic kind of capability. And so, a year or two ago, I realised I need to actually set up a structure that means this doesn’t keep happening. And the way that I’ve done that is just blocked out an entire week in my calendar every quarter, which is lovely because it’s like a seasonal holiday. And I just don’t book anything over the top of that. And it’s sort of like this system that ensures that I get regular rest.

                        And maybe I’ll take a holiday on that time, but sometimes I don’t, or often times I don’t. Often times, I just hang out at home, you know, maybe go for long walks and hang in the garden and, I don’t know, read five books or something like that. I also have transitioned- since January, I’ve transitioned to a four‑day work week. So, I generally have Fridays off. And I’ve found that’s really helpful. It’s helpful having that extra day in my week. If I’m having a low‑energy day midweek, it’s not a big deal. I can just shuffle that day to the Friday and take the day to rest when I need to.

                        But it’s also- it just gives me more perspective. Like it kind of allows me to sort of step back from projects for a bit longer and kind of think deeply. Like my brain likes to work away on things in the background when I’m not actively thinking about them. So, that’s been really helpful. I mean, I know these structures don’t necessarily work for everyone and I have in fact, had a few older folk subtly suggest that I’m doing business wrong, you know, like silly little girl kind of vibes. But I balance that with the fact that I have dozens of clients who love working with me and the way that I work and appreciate kind of that spaciousness and calm that comes with working together.

                        So, I guess, I’m at the point where I feel like we need more diversity in our corporate approach in general, like, rather than this sort of like homogenized, neurotypical, nine‑to‑five, almost like kind of robotic experience. And I think if more people, more small business owners, leaned into working in ways that are more supportive of themselves and their own neurotypes and nervous systems, like, imagine what that would create for the corporate world, like imagine how that would open up the working world for all different types of people, especially people who might currently be excluded from traditional working life because they just don’t have the brain type or whatever that fits into that really rigid sort of working way. So, yeah, I like kind of pushing the boundaries with the way I work as a way to, yeah, just break it all open a little bit more, I think.

Caitie:             Yeah. Thank you for role modelling that because I’ve been having constant conversations lately about not only how to do things, slash, everything differently, but how to take seriously those signals from our minds and bodies to rest. I suppose I’m still in that stage of grappling with what that means and what that might look like. So, I wonder if you can share some of your biggest learnings around rest, around surrendering to, listening to, tending that sense of overwhelm and fatigue. Like, what do you have to say, as someone who has obviously lived through those things? And pain too. I know a lot of people I know are living with chronic pain and trying to figure out what their life can look like with that as something that is part of them, as part of their whole being.

Koren:            Yeah, it’s really challenging. And I feel like this is the lesson that I’ve already learnt and forgotten two or three times in my life, and then had to circle back and relearn it, and kind of look up and go, “Oh, darn. I’m not doing that anymore. I better rethink it.” I guess I’m lucky, in inverted commas, to have like two quite serious handbrakes on my life. Like you know, I love having this really diverse and multiplicitous life and doing all the things, but yeah, these handbrakes often come and remind me that I can’t do everything.

                        So, one is my health. I have a back injury that I mentioned earlier that often- it has me in chronic pain daily at a low level, but it can ramp up if I over overdo it.

Caitie:             Oh, there’s your chicken. He agrees.

Koren:            Rooster at the door. Rooster. I love that. Yeah, so that’s a definite hand break. And then the other thing is I just have a neuro type that’s quite prone to that sensory overload and burnout. And so, those two things sometimes combine to leave me feeling just like I’ve got absolutely nothing in the tank. And on those days, literally all I can do is lay on the couch and watch TV maybe for 14 hours or something like that.

                        And I used to really beat myself up over that. Like I used to think like, “A, this isn’t rest.” Like rest is supposed to be, I don’t know, like laying in a field of sunflowers as the setting sun like beautifully sets over a beach, or I don’t know, this sort of idealised version of what rest should be. It shouldn’t be like slug life on the couch with takeaway wrappers all around you.

                        But I’ve been really interested in the work that Kristin Neff does around self‑compassion. She’s got a couple of really great books, and some excellent meditations and online resources. And that’s really helped me to kind of just accept that sometimes that’s what I need and there’s actually nothing wrong with that, and rest can look like just vegging out in front of the TV. So, that’s been super helpful.

                        I guess in terms of kind of helping myself not get to that point, I’ve used systems again. So, I use time blocking in my calendar. So, I literally add blocks of time to my calendar for everything I’m doing, whether it’s like paid work, unpaid work, like admin type, unbillable stuff, or volunteer work, you know, this podcast and the preparation went into the calendar, but even things that I’m doing with friends and family or you know, fun activities. And because I love visual stuff, it’s all colour‑coded.

                        And when I look at my calendar, it’s just a digital calendar and when I look at it each week, it gives me a very clear visual of whether I’m overdoing it or not. And that helps to balance things out and make sure that I do have lots of rest built into my calendar.

                        And then something I’ve been really kind of working out lately is figuring out what things- you know, when I’m not at that complete burnout point, when I can get up off the couch, what actually is restorative to me. Like I kind of asked myself this question at the beginning of the year and realised I didn’t know the answer and I was a bit shocked. I was like, “Oh, damn.”

                        So, I’ve been really paying attention to that in the last few months and what I’ve noticed is that it’s often things that have some form of movement or where I’m using my hands, like doing a puzzle, for example, or you know, chopping up veggies to make pickles, or fruit to make jams, or weaving. Like I had the opportunity to learn weaving from, you know, during a First Nations led workshop last year and now I’ve got this knowledge to make these baskets and it’s just like the most beautiful process. And I think there’s something ancient in that, right, like that’s kind of what we used to do.

                        Or seed saving is another really good one. And I noticed that that kind of lets my mind- I almost imagine it like it’s floating across the top of like a really calm, warm ocean surface, you know, like my hands are there doing something and my brain’s engaged, but not fully, just enough to stay afloat and then it can float wherever it wants. And I really do just find that so restorative. So, it’s been helpful to clock that those things are good for me because now, instead of being like, “Ugh, I can’t fit weaving in this week. That’s like a superfluous activity. I’ve got all these other things I have to do.” It’s more like, “Mm, no, I need weaving or gardening.”

                        You know, gardening is hugely restorative for me. I actually need that in order to be able to keep going and do all the other things. So, what can I shift of the other things to make room for that thing which is rest? So, I guess I’ve had to redefine what rest is because some weird part of my brain thought it had to be like meditation, or walking or whatever. But it turns out for me, rest can be like going hard at a shovel in the garden for like an hour, or it could be, you know, sitting on the couch for eight hours. It’s really, yeah, variable.

Caitie:             Well, if you’d like to collaborate on a dictionary of modern redefinitions of a redefining everything dictionary, I would be most amenable to that. Yeah, I feel like we need so many new definitions. And those words that we use to describe anything carry all of the old inherited meanings and can actually interrupt our reality and our personal paradigm. So, yeah, rest can be digging a big fucking hole. I love that. Yeah.

                        What I wondered as you were speaking, Koren, was like when you reflect, when do you block that reflective time in because obviously, so much reflection and refinement has gone into this routine that you’ve established for yourself? And then maybe further to that, and potentially it’s connected, but how do you start the day because I think the starting of the day, that new fresh east kind of sunrise energy does set the tone for not only the day, but also our lives? So, yeah, when do you reflect and also, how do you greet the day?

Koren:            The reflection piece is something that I’ve built into my business this year. So, a lot has changed for me this year. I previously was working part time in my business and part time for- you know, I had firstly, a three‑day‑a‑week job and then a two‑day‑a‑week job for other people. And then in January, I moved fully into my own business. So, that’s been amazing because it’s given me space to really think closely about my systems and what’s important to me.

                        So, like I have a time‑blocked period of what I call business development time each week, but I’m finding that I rarely use that for reflection. The reflection comes on the Friday off when I’m out in the garden, or walking, or kind of at random times. I use OneNote just to jot down every thought I’ve ever had around that kind of thing and then sort of add them into like my holistic decision-making context, or my key messaging document, or something like that.

                        So, I guess, kind of intentionally set the time aside, but then be open to the inspiration coming whenever it comes and just jotting it down as I can. And then in terms of starting the day, it’s a movable feast. So, you’ve caught me right as I’ve just started a new routine that’s going to make me sound like some sort of angel. I’ve been getting up and doing like a 10 to 15‑minute meditation and then 15 to 20 minutes of yoga and then sort of trying to do a little fast. So, just having herbal tea until maybe like nine or 10 and then eating breakfast.

                        That definitely doesn’t happen every day and that’s sort of something that I do for a while and then I forget that it even exists and I just start waking up at like 8am and coming out of bed all sleep‑crusted eyes and sitting straight down at the computer. So, I’m definitely not a saint in that realm, but I think the reason I’ve returned to that healthier wake up scenario now is because one of those handbrakes has been speaking to me.

                        So, my back has been quite sore generally lately. Like I’ve been having, as I said before, I always have some pain every day, but I’ve been having a little bit more every day than I normally do. So, that feedback loop is telling me, I think it’s telling me I need to move more because I had just stopped. Like I was doing a bit of walking, but I wasn’t really doing much more than that. And also, like I’ve finished a lot of my really large‑scale garden reno’s, which is great, but they kept me so fit. Like there was so much shovelling, and building, and lifting, and carrying and I was really fit during that period, so now I have to be a bit more mindful about exercise.

                        So, it’s interesting to note, like now I’ve kind of been back in this routine for a week or two and already my back is starting to calm down and it’s telling me like, “Yeah, great. Thank you. Thanks for listening.”

Caitie:             Oh, Koren, it is such a treat to wander through your inner and outer realms. I feel like you shared that, you know, so candidly about your life. And that is exceptional for me to hear and I know that people will just be completely fascinated and inspired by how you live and the non‑saintliness of it all as well. It’s very raw and real. Is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you really wanted to elaborate on? And if not, where can people hang out with you?

Koren:            I guess one thing I’d love to say sort of in response to thinking about the broader climate crisis and how we sit within that because like many people, I feel deeply worried about the future ahead of us and the troubles that lay ahead of us as the climate crisis worsens, big change really does feel inevitable. But I guess I love this, and there’s this really great book by Jonica Newby. It’s called Beyond Climate Grief and she says, like, “No one’s going to join a movement where there’s no path or belief in change. Like we have to have courage and keep moving forward and then courage inspires courage.”

                        And I think that’s kind of what I’m trying to do across all areas of my life, it’s just whether I’m working, or hanging out with friends, or doing stuff in my garden, or renovating my house, it’s like, “What’s the courageous thing that I could do here to spark a little bit of positive change?” And it doesn’t even have to be a big thing. Like it could literally just be like adding insulation to your roof rather than building a new kitchen or something like that. And I think that’s really inspiring for other people.

                        Like, when we see other people being brave, it kind of gives you the courage to think that you can be brave too. And so, I guess if I could just leave that with people of like you don’t- there are these huge systemic issues and they are deeply overwhelming and worrying, but you know, you don’t need to fix them all. You can start with a small thing and just kind of take it from there and maybe your courage to do that little thing will inspire your neighbour, or your friend, or your workplace, or something like that.

Caitie:             Oh, thank you so much. Small acts of bravery. Yeah, that’s a beautiful takeaway. And yeah, is it mainly like Instagram where you’re sharing stuff? Are you writing elsewhere where people can tune in?

Koren:            Yeah, Instagram’s definitely the best place to find me at the moment. So, that’s just under my name, Koren Helbig. I have a website where I do a little bit of blogging. I sort of share the stories that I write for the ABC and The Guardian and then other bits and bobs. So, that’s always a good place to hang out. There is a newsletter sign‑up button on there. I think I’ve sent two newsletters to that crew in like four years. [Inaudible] like admissions, sorry about that, but yeah, I do have plans to kind of ramp that back up this year. So, if you’re not a social media user, then the newsletter would be a great place.

Caitie:             Brilliant, brilliant. I love a newsletter. It’s my absolute favourite form of communicating with people, but I too let it fall by the wayside because it is a big time commitment. Yeah, so I can’t wait to see what you pen and what enters my inbox. Thank you so much.

Koren:            I’m so grateful for this time and space, and the just so deeply insightful questions, Caitie, that you ask. They’re a breath of fresh air, so thank you so much for having me.

Caitie:             That means a lot to me.

                        I’m so grateful for Koren’s work in the world and her conversational generosity. You can find Koren’s offerings and all the cool stuff we talked about linked in the show notes.